Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 Print
Normal Topic Some rare stuff? (Read 133 times)
 
BobM
Project Jeep
*
Offline



Posts: 9
Location: Northwest Ohio
Joined: 01/07/19
Gender: Male
Some rare stuff?
03/12/19 at 09:13:52
Print Post  
I am frame offing a 1950 CJ3A. I am the second owner. It was originally purchased in 1950 to use as a farm jeep in Michigan. As I am going along I ran across a few things I think might be unique. First off I found these air bag springs hanging from the frame. I have never seen anything on these. I was told by someone they were a factory installed component.

The next thing was the motor adapter. Posted on this site as rare piece, I can add: This Willy's is an early 1950. It has a Dana 41 in the rear. It also has a CJ2A motor plate WITH an adapter from the factory. It also has a factory installed motor beginning with a "T" stamped in the serial number supposedly indicating a truck motor. This CJ however was built using up inventory for the change to the forward position motor plate (for the new vacuum assisted fuel pump clearance) and the Dana 44 axle that was introduced in production in November of 1950. The motor adapter was originally developed to use up the old motor inventory with 2A motor plates. There are more than a few CJ3A's with the adapter and a CJ2A style motor plate installed at the factory. There are also a few with factory installed "T" serial number motors.The old design motor plate was on all the L134 motors regardless of what vehicle it was originally headed for.

Anyway can anybody help with the air bagged helper springs? They appear to be factory for sure. The bolt that held them to the frame had to be installed with the body off. A weird square head bolt wedged in the frame. The lower mounting is gone.
This reminds me of a lesson learned "The First Rule of Jeeps" from a wise man on another forum. "What you see is what you have. Trust nothing written if it doesn't match what you have."


« Last Edit: 03/12/19 at 09:28:01 by BobM »  

IMG_20190312_073435186.jpg ( 1586 KB | 1 Download )
IMG_20190312_073435186.jpg
IMG_20190312_073440563.jpg ( 1953 KB | 1 Download )
IMG_20190312_073440563.jpg
IMG_20190312_073649000.jpg ( 1090 KB | 1 Download )
IMG_20190312_073649000.jpg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
athawk11
YaBB Administrator
Owner Member 2012
2016 Sponsor Member
2015 Sponsor Member
*****
Offline


1949 CJ3A

Posts: 2711
Location: Arvada, Colorado
Joined: 01/26/11
Gender: Male
Re: Some rare stuff?
Reply #1 - 03/12/19 at 13:50:16
Print Post  
Hi Bob,

What resources and documentation have you been using to research your CJ-3A and its engine?

You seem emphatic, but there are resources that contradict a number of your conclusions.
  

2-1949 CJ3A 
1-1946 CJ2A
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BobM
Project Jeep
*
Offline



Posts: 9
Location: Northwest Ohio
Joined: 01/07/19
Gender: Male
Re: Some rare stuff?
Reply #2 - 03/12/19 at 18:07:54
Print Post  
Hello athawk11, oh no, I wasn't meaning to be forceful. I did research a bit on the production change that took place on the 41 to 44 in November of 1950. There is some documentation I found on that. I was wondering why I had the things I had! Knowing my Jeeps history, I know it is the original engine and axles. I found a post on a forum (could have been here) where someone had documentation on that 1950 production change. There is a lot written about the model 41 axle showing up in a few known original CJ3A's

Nearly my entire career was spent in Toledo Ohio working for Dana. I worked side by side with the guys at Jeep in the 1990's before I retired. We are lucky here in the Toledo area to have some "old-timer's" in the jeep clubs who can still remember some of the things that happened back in the 50's, at the now torn down Willy's Overland plant. In any event I was trying to say don't be discouraged if you find your "Original" has some discrepancies if it was built during production change overs. It was common practice back then to use up your old inventory.

What about those air bag coil overs? Any idea what those are? Those have everyone I have asked stumped! It looks like in order to install them, the square head bolts had to be inserted before the rear cross member to frame V brace was welded in.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
athawk11
YaBB Administrator
Owner Member 2012
2016 Sponsor Member
2015 Sponsor Member
*****
Offline


1949 CJ3A

Posts: 2711
Location: Arvada, Colorado
Joined: 01/26/11
Gender: Male
Re: Some rare stuff?
Reply #3 - 03/12/19 at 22:07:07
Print Post  

Hi Bob,

I would love to listen to those old Jeeps guys talk about the "old days". And pick their brains. I'm a little envious.

I want you to know that I am not being cheeky at all when I share some things that may modify some of your conclusions.

Nearly 28,000 CJ3As were built in 1949.  Because of this, it would be highly unlikely to have a CJ2A front engine plate, on a T prefix engine, installed originally by the factory in a new 1950 CJ3A. 

As you mention, the official documented change from the Dana 41 to the Dana 44 was in the later part of 1950 at CJ3A 62488.  Prior to this, the 1949s and most 1950 CJ3As left the factory with the Dana 41.  There were some intermixed Dana 41 axles still showing up on some early 1951 CJ3As.

The adapter plate shown in your photo does appear to be somewhat hard to come by.  They do show up on occasion.

The springs... I have no idea.  I haven't seen them before.  I have seen similar booster springs on some Willys Jeeps that had been equipped with some farm implements, but nothing with an internal air bag.  They are kind of cool.  Are you going to put them back on your project?

Speaking of your project,  we would all like to see more of what you've got going.  Bring us along for the ride.  I'm not speaking out of turn when I say, we all enjoy the project threads showing restorations and refurbs.  Lots of photos! Wink

Tim



  

2-1949 CJ3A 
1-1946 CJ2A
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BobM
Project Jeep
*
Offline



Posts: 9
Location: Northwest Ohio
Joined: 01/07/19
Gender: Male
Re: Some rare stuff?
Reply #4 - 03/13/19 at 14:44:48
Print Post  
I agree that it is rare to find a Jeep with a factory adapter and a truck motor stamp. It doesn't seem possible but, I have one! My serial number is 4xxxx. an early 1950 for sure with the first 1950 being serial number 39750. I did find one other person to speak with who also has a known factory installed "T" serial number motor in a CJ.

Here are some pictures of the project. Here we go! More to follow. So far the Frame, Suspension, Steering, Brakes, Axles, Steering Box and water pump are restored. I have been able to use all of the original stuff so far with the exception of wear items (bearings etc.) which have been replaced.The Motor is back from the machine shop and going together now. I am hoping to have it done for the Toledo Jeep Fest in August.
  

Peej_1.jpg ( 1278 KB | 1 Download )
Peej_1.jpg
Peej_above.jpg ( 2356 KB | 3 Downloads )
Peej_above.jpg
Peej_body_off.jpg ( 2386 KB | 3 Downloads )
Peej_body_off.jpg
Peej_clean_frame.jpg ( 1336 KB | 2 Downloads )
Peej_clean_frame.jpg
Peej_genisis_1.jpg ( 1326 KB | 2 Downloads )
Peej_genisis_1.jpg
Peej_genisis_2.jpg ( 2464 KB | 2 Downloads )
Peej_genisis_2.jpg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
athawk11
YaBB Administrator
Owner Member 2012
2016 Sponsor Member
2015 Sponsor Member
*****
Offline


1949 CJ3A

Posts: 2711
Location: Arvada, Colorado
Joined: 01/26/11
Gender: Male
Re: Some rare stuff?
Reply #5 - 03/13/19 at 17:52:06
Print Post  
The adapter plate was designed specifically to allow a 'replacement' engine to be installed on a CJ2A (no adapter needed) or a CJ3A (adapter required).  This allowed the Willys dealers and repair shops to carry less engines in inventory, and still be able to replace an engine in either model Jeep.

No CJ3A left the factory with a 2A style front engine plate and adapter.  All 3As were originally equipped with a dual action fuel pump.  There were two different types of these dual action pumps used during 3A production.  Both required the forward facing driver side engine mount.  You just can't talk up the newly designed vacuum wipers in an April, 1949 CJ3A press release, then supply the old style single action pump in a new 3A.  I will go out on a ledge and say that it is indisputable that this could not have happened on a 1950 3A... followed by the 30,000+ 3As that were made before yours.

All CJ3As left the factory floor with 3J engine prefixes.  From my research, this is the one sure thing that Willys Overland did well. Your T prefix engine is not original to your 3A. And neither is the other T prefix engine that you know of.  Your engine may not be a truck engine either.  These left the factory in trucks...with a prefix 2T or 4T.  You haven't mentioned a 2 or 4 in front of your T.  Is there a 2 or 4 in front of the T? 

Do you have a photo of the serial number?  If so, can we see it?  The font used by Willys is very distinctive.  If not stamped using this distinguishable font, then this engine may have gone through a deck resurfacing.  This process often removes the original serial number.  A new number may have been re-stamped.

Additional observations.  The rear of your engine has a reddish primer tint.  If this is the only layer of paint, (no black paint below it) then this would be an indication of a factory replacement engine.  Only problem with that is the engine serial prefix would be 4LR, if it was in fact a factory replacement.

The head is attached using bolts.  This suggests that someone has been in this engine previously.  Heads were originally held in place with studs and nuts.

Seeing the actual serial number may offer more answers.

Final observation...you're doing terrific work on you restoration.  I looks really good.


  

2-1949 CJ3A 
1-1946 CJ2A
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BobM
Project Jeep
*
Offline



Posts: 9
Location: Northwest Ohio
Joined: 01/07/19
Gender: Male
Re: Some rare stuff?
Reply #6 - 03/14/19 at 10:05:13
Print Post  
Your eye is awesome! I stuck another pic for your scrutiny. My cell phone snaps are not real good but, you can see the mount and the fuel pump. Not the correct fuel pump however. Another indication of the economy during rebuild/repair. The only thing that may help understand how the engine got in there would be the original owner. It is possible the adapter was installed by a dealer or shop during a rebuild. There is no recollection that this occurred however. The motor was rebuilt at least twice. It was bored, and then some time later it was honed and knurled, probably when it started smoking again! Since so much time was spent trying to keep the original block (boring it then tearing it down again and knurling the pistons) it seems like they were trying to avoid a new block.

The old timers definitely remember using up inventory at the plant. Times were tight all through the 1940's 1950' and even the 60's. They used everything of value. One thing to note on the actual adapter. It is an investment casting. It would have required a mold etc. to produce. This process is of course used on moderate to high volume parts over using simple fabrication. In other words Willy's made at least a few casing runs. There has to be a bunch of these (adapters), relatively speaking. It must have been used quite a bit in the service market as you spoke of. The block and motor plate could have been swapped during one of the rebuilds. It sure seems that quite a few of those adapters must have been made available.

The bolts on the head were some of the casualties of many mechanical errors/substitutions made on the farm. In fact I used the "bolt from stud" error to point out something during the motor machining. The center BOLT that was put in on the drivers side had to much shoulder. When the shoulder hit the threads in the block, the force of tightening it down produced a small crack that showed up during Magnaflux. Fortunately it was easily fixed with an insert. I have seen a lot of this in my old work. Usually someone will force a bolt down into a blind hole that used to hold a stud. The crap in the hole often caused the sides of the casting to crack under the hydraulic pressure.

I do have the entire engine serial hand stamp from the boss behind the water pump. It is a 4Txxxxx. It is gone now as I had the block decked .010".

I truly appreciate your input on this! I want to get it right and having all the info is part of that. Having restored a few vehicles, this is my first Jeep. I did a 59' Chevy truck back in the 80's. I wish I would have kept it. This one is forever!
« Last Edit: 03/14/19 at 10:05:41 by BobM »  

Peej_before_motor.jpg ( 2094 KB | 4 Downloads )
Peej_before_motor.jpg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
athawk11
YaBB Administrator
Owner Member 2012
2016 Sponsor Member
2015 Sponsor Member
*****
Offline


1949 CJ3A

Posts: 2711
Location: Arvada, Colorado
Joined: 01/26/11
Gender: Male
Re: Some rare stuff?
Reply #7 - 03/14/19 at 14:49:33
Print Post  
I do make some assumptions regarding the availability of the adapter bracket/plate.  I have one too.  When folks find out I've got one, they ask (sometimes numerous times) if I want to sell it. I keep it because it's a unique, one purpose bracket.  Plus, it's kind of cool.



I'm sure you're right.  There were probably plenty of them at some point, but because they are a "one purpose" bracket, many may have been discarded, scrapped, forgotten about, etc, over the past 50-60 years.  Many people, in the know, that have these old 2As and 3As do not know this bracket exists or what it's used for.

In the age of the world wide web, and the ease of purchasing Willys parts, I would assume that folks do what I did and purchase the correct 3A style front engine plate, then discard this bracket.

My first 3A had this bracket joining a GPW engine to the 3A frame.  This GPW was most likely an engine that Ford sold to a repair shop following the end of WWII.  There is no GPW serial.  The engine has never gone through a full rebuild.  I ridge reamed, replaced the rings, and re-honed it a few years ago.  Still has the standard size pistons, and the crank mains and piston bearings are still standard size.  Makes me think it sat on the shelf for quite some time before the prior 3A owner came in with a problem. Smiley



In any event, keep showing your progress. It really is fun to live precariously through you.  Wish I had your car lift.

Tim   
« Last Edit: 03/14/19 at 14:51:37 by athawk11 »  

2-1949 CJ3A 
1-1946 CJ2A
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BobM
Project Jeep
*
Offline



Posts: 9
Location: Northwest Ohio
Joined: 01/07/19
Gender: Male
Re: Some rare stuff?
Reply #8 - 03/14/19 at 19:55:12
Print Post  
I am going to use the adapter in this build. I am trying to put it back together with as many of the parts as I can. It will be close to a restore but a few discrepancies will occur. I will have a built in conversation starter for sure!

I see what appears to be a casting mark on yours. And a fairly clear casting number. If that is a "Circle B" They were made by Buckeye Steel Casting Company out of Columbus Ohio. This is wild! An excerpt from Wikipedia..... "best known today for its longtime president, Samuel P. Bush, who was the grandfather of President George H.W. Bush and great-grandfather of President George W. Bush." Ha ha! These Jeeps are just full of history!

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=casting+foundry+marks

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbus_Castings

I'll keep going with the updates. I should list some of the things I am running into. The lift was a gift to myself to preserve my old body! I swore I was done crawling under cars in the stones!
« Last Edit: 03/14/19 at 20:03:10 by BobM »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1
Print
Bookmarks: Facebook Google Google+ Linked in Twitter Yahoo